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Sleepy Zan
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Posted - 2012.09.15 21:39:00 -
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Since heavies suck against missile turrets or railguns unless they have the high ground here is a possible solution other than buffing swarms to a ridiculous damage output
This idea is inspired by the immortals in starcraft 2. An immortal has normal shielding in most situations but when they get hit with something that has a high enough damage output (like a tank) it instantly builds large amounts of resistance against the damage taken. Adding this effect in a module to effect shields or armor would be a good way for a heavy to compensate for low maneuverability when taking on a tank or when hit with an RE. It also keeps infantry battles with heavies the same so there will be no unfair advantage in infantry battles.
Also may promote more use in blasters for anti infantry since missiles wont be as effective against this module but blasters should be able to take it out with the same ease as before.
Not sure if this has already been mentioned or exists in EVE (discuss) |
Sleepy Zan
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Posted - 2012.09.16 05:01:00 -
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Let me explain I apologize for not being clear enough
Needless Sacermendor wrote:I don't understand the concept ... you want the heavy as an armor tanked class to take less damage from anything that has a higher armor value than itself !? How will this help against a shield tanked HAV ? and if you shield tank your heavy, you want it to take less damage from a shield tanked HAV ... same goes for the Surya !
It is intended to be a module (probably low slot to boost shielding [not armor]) for heavies to have instant damage resistance at the moment a projectile hits them with enough damage to it. It is meant to allow heavies not to get one shoted by railguns or missile launchers and to have a bit more of a fitting chance. I was thinking that the line can be drawn at anything doing 350 damage or more would trigger the hardeners. Also the resistance level ranging from 50% standard - 80% prototype.This may seem like alot of resistance but considering the amount a type 2 heavy has in comparison to a railgun I think it is actually pretty reasonable.
sorry fixed error shield output now says damage output |
Sleepy Zan
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Posted - 2012.09.16 05:02:00 -
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Needless Sacermendor wrote:Also the Swarm is not a heavy weapon, it's a light weapon so I don't understand the relation between that and your suggestion ... the forge gun maybe I could be close to empathising but probably not as this goes against everything CCP is trying to achieve.
I'm saying to nerf swarms and rebuff tanks a little and use this to help balance it out. Yes I would imagine a heavy in this fit to carry a forge gun. The heavy still won't be nearly impossible for the tank to kill with railgun or missile launcher splash but this way will give a heavy a little more tanking to do one of the jobs it was originally intended for, which is taking on tanks. The heavy of course still has to play smart and can't take on a tank like this out in the open and once you have these heavies with this module learning the proper technique to deal with tanks then the tank will need more infantry support to be able to take out the heavy like wise for the heavy, which is what CCP is trying to achieve (more infantry support needed for tanks).
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Sleepy Zan
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Posted - 2012.09.16 05:02:00 -
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Needless Sacermendor wrote:And how would any of this make a difference between missiles and blasters on a HAV ? Surely it wouldn't matter what kind of turrets are fitted ... so long as the tank was the same as the heavies he would receive less damage.
It is based on the amount of damage a heavy takes with one shot, sure missile splash would probably avoid the resistance but ,I would think, that blasters would be a far more effective counter. |
Sleepy Zan
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Posted - 2012.09.16 05:03:00 -
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Needless Sacermendor wrote:It's not the fans that demand everything to fit in with Eve lore, it's CCP that have a whole universe of ways and mechanics and science that they want to maintain as much as possible and tweak as little as possible to get DUST to release.
I was talking about a module like this that exists in game in EVE and whether or not it was already planned for Dust.
again sorry for not being more clear I hope this helps |
Sleepy Zan
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Posted - 2012.09.16 05:05:00 -
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ReGnUm ReSuRgAM DEI wrote:wanna group up ?
sure check in channel "LFSquad" for me
Noc Tempre wrote:I would just like to say I like this idea, but make is a module. Furthermore, instead of a flat resistance buff, why not make it inverse to their current speed? That way heavies can hold ground but don't overshadow the assaults for taking it. It was meant to be a module, low slot now that I think about it. Not sure if it should be only lomited to heavies or not tho. Also not sure if it should allow stacking either. |
Sleepy Zan
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Posted - 2012.09.16 13:32:00 -
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Needless Sacermendor wrote:Thanks for taking the time to address each of my points ... I understand a lot better what you're trying to achieve now.
Before my opinion I'm not sure what module in Eve you're talking about ... we have regular damage resists but I'm not aware of anything that only applies resists when damage above a threshold is received ... any clarification on which module you mean.
My Opinion : As a dedicated Assault Swarm user, even in cqc battles as my SMG skills are better than my AR, I'm not a big fan of dropping Swarm damage, though I do think they shouldn't be so readily available. Even now since the hotfix I can hit a Sagaris with proto swarm and double damage mods and it barely scratches the paint. I've invested a lot of sp to make a workable AV fit that can survive against infantry and deal heafty damage to vehicles, I don't believe I should be able to solo kill a good advanced HAV with a single prototype AV weapon but I should be able to get it on the move which I generally can.
(Edited : When I say swarms shouldn't be readily available, I mean no militia Swarms ... there's no militia forge so why have other militia AV weapons, AV is a specialist role.)
I do agree the heavy class needs some work but I'm not sure this is the right way to go about it ... my reason being ... I can solo most heavies no matter what weapon they are carrying simply by staffing through his tracers of the HMG or the same tactic to avoid his audible forge charge just as it's about to discharge. I have however met one good heavy user by the name of Khemlar Maktar who can destroy me every time usually before I've even switched to SMG and fired a shot or turned to face him. I put this down to a most not 100% specialising into the heavy class and as such they shouldn't be good at it, a heavy user shouldn't have assault rifle skills or swarm launchers, these are both light weapons, not heavy and should be trained after his heavy weapons.
I think heavies should just get their e train hit points back that they used to have if you want them to have a bit more survivability but also the damage resist modules available to vehicles could be made available to dropsuits but as I've said ... these are across the board resists, they have no concept of the level of damage received.
No problem in addressing your questions man, it was only an idea I had to possibly aid in the tank vs infantry balancing and I just wanted to see what the community thought of it or if it would inspire any new ideas. Even before the tank nerf there were a small group of heavies who had their **** together and could lay waste to tanks. I just wanted to promote the use of heavy forge gun to destroy tanks rather than swarms which should only do damage and shouldn't be able to be used to solo a tank, in my opinion. |
Sleepy Zan
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Posted - 2012.09.16 18:03:00 -
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Skytt Syysch wrote:Sleepy Zan wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:I would just like to say I like this idea, but make is a module. Furthermore, instead of a flat resistance buff, why not make it inverse to their current speed? That way heavies can hold ground but don't overshadow the assaults for taking it. It was meant to be a module, low slot now that I think about it. Not sure if it should be only lomited to heavies or not tho. Also not sure if it should allow stacking either. I like the idea of it being a module, and I also like the idea that anyone can fit it, with the bigger suits getting a better bonus from it. It should definitely be limited to one per suit, though, if it's getting 50-80% resist (imagine a logi stacking 4, even if they get a smaller effect). What I don't like is the damage threshold being the only trigger, because it would then apply to grenades and sniper headshots and other non-vehicle related things if this is supposed to only be to boost survivability as an AV role.
That's why I was trying to decide if it should be exclusive to the heavy class or not, maybe the heavy suits can get 50% to 80% with the bonus while all other suits get something like 25% to 50% (random number off the top of my head, I'll have to look into it more to get what I actually think it should be). Heavies have have no defense against REs and well timed grenades this is to give them a better chance with those as well. As far as stacking goes I was unsure about that as well, I don't want to make them absolutely impossible to kill with explosives, but if you stack 4 on a logi good luck in a standard fire fight. I believe that everything should be able to have a counter if you are willing to sacrifice something else, if you don't want to be popped with a head shot from a sniper sacrifice a low slot that could be fitted with something else that would help you in a different situation. |
Sleepy Zan
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Posted - 2012.09.18 15:26:00 -
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Laurent Cazaderon wrote:Sleepy Zan wrote:Since heavies suck against missile turrets or railguns unless they have the high ground here is a possible solution other than buffing swarms to a ridiculous damage output
This idea is inspired by the immortals in starcraft 2. An immortal has normal shielding in most situations but when they get hit with something that has a high enough damage output (like a siege tank) it instantly builds large amounts of resistance against the damage taken. Adding this effect in a module to effect shields or armor would be a good way for a heavy to compensate for low maneuverability when taking on a tank or when hit with an RE. It also keeps infantry battles with heavies the same so there will be no unfair advantage in infantry battles.
Also may promote more use in blasters for anti infantry since missiles wont be as effective against this module but blasters should be able to take it out with the same ease as before.
Not sure if this has already been mentioned or exists in EVE (discuss) Uh, i crush turrets installations with my heavy FG every map. Wich is why i always root for a massive boost to those turrets HP. Hello, those MASSIVE canon can't stand more shots than a CRU ?
I believe those are the militia installations they will be stronger once they are available on the market. |
Sleepy Zan
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Posted - 2012.11.02 16:59:00 -
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Ty 'SweetCheeks' Borg wrote:I admire the fact your trying to help the AV vs vehicles issue, but do you honestly think that forge's are useless and the heavies need a buff?.
Currently everyone has a forge gun, it's the only effective AV out there since swarms are broken. With this buff heavies with no brains will be able to run rampant against all vehicles with only infantry to stop them.
Any smart heavy AV user out there will be using cover and they don't get one shot, not by large missiles anyway unless they're dumb. Saying this will help them against railguns, well, the only sure fire way to get a heavy in cover is snipe them with a rail and currently the railgun is crap and broken due to whines last build. Your better off having some guy sit on your tank with a forge, it's ridiculous how the forge is better than the railgun in everyway.
The problem is with the small missile turrets and them being placed on dropships and the fact that swarms are useless against this. As I keep saying, the entire balance of AV, vehicles and turrets is totally way off.
All this suggestion does is make heavies nigh on un-killable against tanks. I think this idea needs some work before it's not OP tbh. Kudos for trying though Sleepy. This thread was made last build when they nerfed tanks and buffed AV, and I don't expect to buff heavies like this without buffing tanks as well. This was my idea to buff heavies instead smacking tanks with the nerf-bat. I would like to see tanks have more hp like before, and actually be able to tank. I hated the way they made swarms automatically tear apart tanks and at the time heavies could just get one shot by turrets before they could lay on much damage.
But yeah last thing I would want is for any more OP aspects. |
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Sleepy Zan
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Posted - 2012.11.02 17:01:00 -
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EnglishSnake wrote:lolno
OP want to buff swarms even more lolno
They already got put back to normal levels then an extra 20% added on, the ability to fly around stuff, the ability to lock on behind cover, they are already free as it is
With that heavy mod can i have that for my tank since its made of paper so i build resistances which are much more needed lol chill I came up with this as an alternative to the tank nerf and swarm buff. I want to see tanks buffed but I was hoping this could give infantry more of a fighting chance. |
Sleepy Zan
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Posted - 2012.11.02 18:38:00 -
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Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Sleepy Zan wrote:EnglishSnake wrote:lolno
OP want to buff swarms even more lolno
They already got put back to normal levels then an extra 20% added on, the ability to fly around stuff, the ability to lock on behind cover, they are already free as it is
With that heavy mod can i have that for my tank since its made of paper so i build resistances which are much more needed lol chill I made came up with this as an alternative to the tank nerf and swarm buff. I want to see tanks buffed but I was hoping this could give infantry more of a fighting chance. But why heavies exclusively then? Are you a heavy? No I'm not a heavy, but I think they should be on more of the AV badass side of things and I also think tanks need to be able to take a couple of hits but still have stuff to watch out for. I don't want to end up making explosives useless by having everyone run around with this module. At least all the other classes can still run to cover, but heavies can still be helplessly immobile. |
Sleepy Zan
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Posted - 2012.11.03 06:39:00 -
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You really detest punctuation don't you. |
Sleepy Zan
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Posted - 2012.11.03 17:16:00 -
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Chalybeia Aquila wrote:I like the idea but it shouldnt be a damage modifier. I would rather make it a energy reuser as a feature for every suit like shield repairing. It uses a part of the energy of the projectile to overload the system. The different damage types could have a different usage aswell. From EM damage you get most energy, then thermal, explosive and kinetic. It would have the most usage for heavies due to their insane armor. It was only an idea this is also a good one.
Bhor Derri wrote:The tanks already got nerfed once guys so STFU and stop the QQ about it its the Large missile turrets and CCP loving caldari vehicles so whilist they are OP Gallentean ones are broken some tanks cost +2mil isk btw I don't think a sh!*tty Noob should be able to complain about this. Balance tanks don't nerf them ples CCP Maybe if you could read past a 2nd grade level you could have seen in the title this was meant to be an alternative to the tank nerf.
Drommy Hood wrote:I think it's a pretty decent idea.
Maybe instead of a higher resistance to things bigger than it though, an invoulnerability to splash damage from missiles? Since missiles are really where the problem lies that means the heavy can stand against a tank unless he receives a direct hit, also means he can take the time it takes to miss a few times against the drop ships spamming missiles everywhere yes I wouldn't mind it even being meant to risist splash damage, that might workout better actually. |
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